Jacob Rudin (Artist NTHNL) Interview With The Final On Vinyl Podcast

This was an enlightening interview. If you are interested in how an artist creates meditation music you will have great interest!

Keith "MuzikMan" Hannaleck

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Transcript

Speaker 0:03

Hi everybody, this is Keith MuzikMan Hannaleck with the Final on Vinyl Podcast, and tonight I am with Jacob Rudin, who is the artist Nathaniel, N T H N L, and just covered recently his album Tranquility Studies Volume 2. Welcome to the show, Jacob.

Speaker 1 0:21

Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 0:25

Glad to have you. And uh I understand you just came back from a um a retreat. What was that like?

Speaker 1 0:32

Um it was wild. It was a uh 10-day silent meditation retreat for the Patna. Um it was kind of beyond beyond what I could have imagined it would have been. Uh it was like 10 hours a day of sitting, and then all other times you're just being totally silent. Um it was at times amazing and at times just completely overwhelming in terms of just being cooped up.

Speaker 1:10

Right. So you feel that it benefited you in in some ways after you left?

Speaker 1 1:16

Um, I think it will. Yeah, I mean it's like you get so much practice, and um I think in my daily practice, which I'm taking a little break from, um, my daily meditation practice, I think it's gonna end up being super beneficial.

Speaker 1:33

So I'm sure people would like to know um your name's Jacob, but you go by Nathaniel and you abbreviated it. Is there a reason why you did it that way?

Speaker 1 1:44

Uh it's my middle name is Nathaniel. Oh and it's sort of it's sort of a nod to my um the the first root in in America was Nathaniel. So it's like kind of a nod to my heritage.

Speaker 2:01

I see. Okay. How long ago was that?

Speaker 1 2:07

Uh like around the turn of the century, around 1900.

Speaker 2:11

Ah, okay. So I listened to your um studies, volume two, with great great interest, and um noted the fact that you felt that the sound waves coming in at the 7 to 10 hertz level was very critical to what you were trying to accomplish. Can you uh delve into that a little bit? Explain to the audience what that you know the reason why you did it that way and what is the desired result?

Speaker 1 2:44

Yes, totally. So um in your body and in your brain, you have these waves, um, and they're sort of like electrical pulses that are like running back and forth between different regions of your brain, and they kind of determine your state. So the speed of them determines feeling. Uh so if you're in DC, for example, um, that is like not dreaming. The brain waves that are going that are most active are called delta waves, which are like the slowest waves, um, which is like 0.5 to 3 hertz or something. And those are just like kind of shutting your brain down. You have a constant hum, sort of like your electrical hum of your body, and that's at 10 hertz. So that's that's like what they call low alpha or high theta. And that's a really good grounding frequency because it's sort of just baseline state. If you go a little bit lower than that, and you enter the theta range, that is considered that is like typically considered a calming state, because it's just below baseline, but it kind of brings you, it brings you down. If you go higher than 10, you enter concentration states, uh, that's like beta, and then you get up into gamma 40 plus, you're dealing with anxiety uh fight or flight states. Um in using, yeah, like the purpose of the music is to sort of um first of all be music. So so be something that you listen to from start to finish. Um sort of like somewhat narrative in form, but at the same time there's this ambient component underneath, and that is sort is uh entraining you, is what it's called. So it's it's like your brain, if it hears a stimulus or it sees like a light flashing at a certain speed, will sympathetically vibrate at that speed. So that's what's that's what's happening underneath the like playing of the instruments, is it's almost like hypnotizing and soothing the brain while it while the brain is while you're actively listening to the music.

Speaker 5:21

So it's like a subconscious thing that you're nearly not aware of, it's just happening?

Speaker 1 5:26

Pretty much, yeah.

Speaker 5:28

Interesting. So where where did you learn all that? Did you do some studies prior to making your music?

Speaker 1 5:35

So I didn't do studies, but it you know, if you go on like YouTube and just type in binaural beats or something like that, it that's the principle that they're using. Or if you look up like study music for, you know, or like like theta study music or alpha study music. Um so it I don't know exactly, I don't remember exactly when I found out about it, but um I'd say I've been interested in it for about three years. I um and and and the the issue I find with that study music, or I don't know about issue, I mean it works for people and it's it's sort of really good background music. Um but that's what it is. And so it's it's hard to take somebody on an emotional journey with something that doesn't really build. So I wanted to main I wanted to both build and and keep you know something that swells and and has some drama to it, because also that's good for like you know, accessing emotional states. And you know, I have some pieces like number one or number four that start out pretty dark and uh and they end in a calm place. So you know, if you want to, you can come to that sound bath, you can come to that meditation with something you want to let go of or something that's troubling you, and you can really just think it. You know, you can you can just expose yourself to that feeling, and then the music will take you out of it, and you'll have faced it.

Speaker 7:24

So this is volume two. Is this just an extension of volume one, or did you go in some different directions on volume two?

Speaker 1 7:32

Um volume one's short form. So volume one was really like the first my first experiments with this kind of music. Uh and each piece in volume one is like pretty different from the other pieces. Uh and they're not sure. But about six months after volume one came out and things were opening up a little bit here in New York, I decided I wanted to start hosting a sound bath at this bar called Bar Jade in Bushwick, which is in Brooklyn. And um so I I started making music for it. I I had I would host these weekly sound baths, they were donation-based, they did pretty okay for a little bit, um, but I realized I wanted to make new music for them every week. So I was composing two sound baths every week with the intention of performing them at Jade Barr. Tranquility Studies Volume 2 is like the culmination of that effort. So when I perform live, the music that I'm performing live in the Soundbath context is the music from Tranquility Studies Volume 2. So it's like longer form, it's designed for more like intentional listening. Whereas volume one is more just kind of seeing what I could do, like put dipping my toe in the water and and seeing what kind of effect I could get with what.

Speaker 9:07

So prior to going in this direction in your life and and with music, what were you doing? I mean, how did you get to this point where you decided to go in this direction and continue with it?

Speaker 1 9:20

Well, I I've always done multiple things with music, so I'm I'm still in a few different directions. Um I guess I came upon this one through really through the computer, through um I was learning this program called MaxMSP, which is like uh sort of music software where you can really in a very basic way code different musical ideas. So I was making these repetitive, you know, synthesized things. I don't know really how to describe it, they would just loop and repeat. They'd always be slightly different, but they would it was very repetitive, and I was using these frequency ideas, you know, the brainwave entrainment stuff, low theta, the stuff that I use on Tranquility Studies Volume 2, and um I found that after working on it for 30 minutes, I was in a completely different mental state. I was just totally relaxed. So I thought to myself, there's something to this, you know, this music can actually help people. This can if I can get it, you know, if I can get it to people and if I can create the right kind of sound, I can really, you know, people can use this to feel better.

Speaker 10:46

Definitely. So do you actually have people call upon you for sessions, or is um you just you you go to the venue and perform and you create record your music, or is there an extension of that?

Speaker 1 11:03

So I've done uh a few private sessions. I mostly do group sessions at different venues. I've played uh I've worked with like uh corporate, sort of a corporate digital retreat. I've done yoga retreats, um I do yoga classes here, yin classes, and I do my main gig though is this space called the Alchemist Kitchen, which is like a plant medicine space in Soho, and actually have one there this coming Sunday.

Speaker 11:40

So you sound like you're really busy.

Speaker 1 11:43

I'm pretty busy, I g I guess. Yeah, and this is this isn't my job.

Speaker 11:49

That's great. That's great. So growing up, what did you listen to? How did you gradually get to the point where you were listening to healing music and new age music? What brought you there?

Speaker 1 12:01

Uh well okay. Well at first I was, I mean, and still, I guess, definitely still jazz and uh RB were the big genres for me, specifically from the 50s and 60s. Uh my first CDs, the first CDs my dad ever got me were it was like a Marvin Gaye Greatest Hits and Al Green's Greatest Hits, and I was obsessed with these CDs, and then like a Motown compilation. That was the first thing I listened to. Yeah. And then I found my way to jazz uh through this tune Stolen Moments by Oliver Nelson, and that brought me into the world of jazz, which I love and have always loved. Um and then uh to a lesser extent rock music, uh techno, big, big into electronic music. So I guess the first link, the first thing that would lead to new age music was um sci trance. When I was in late high school, I was big raver. And sci trance music like Schwangel and hallucinogen and that stuff, that was sort of I mean, I know that's not like totally in the new age camp, but it's it's getting in that direction.

Speaker 13:20

Right. Gets closer to it. What about like craft work, Katero, anything like that? Did you get into that?

Speaker 1 13:27

Yeah. Yeah, definitely craft work. Uh huge into Apex Twin after high school in college, and um and I guess the most significant link would be Andean flute music. Music of the Andes.

Speaker 13:47

Oh, that's different. Yeah, what what exactly is that?

Speaker 1 13:51

You know, with like the pan flutes and the kennas and like music from Peru.

Speaker 13:59

Right. The the woodwinds and all of that.

Speaker 1 14:03

Oh yeah. That's the music that really made me fall in love with the flute, actually, and like made me realize what kind of potential it has to really like uplift.

Speaker 14:16

So what instruments do you play right now?

Speaker 1 14:20

Um I guess in order of proficiency, I'd say flute, piano. Piano is is sort of my first language instrument. I played that my whole life. But I I've been working at flute long enough that I think I'm probably better at flute now. Uh saxophone, clarinet, guitar, some like hand percussion, um some flutes from different parts of the world. Wow. And clarinet, did I say? I think I said it. Yeah, I guess that's kind of it. I can play a little drum set.

Speaker 15:03

Absolutely. So besides that, you know how to use software programs and um the pr you know the programming and that creates all these different sounds and so forth that you put into your music, right? Yeah. Like where you get the the waves or the birds tweeting. That's all pre-programmed stuff that you put in, right?

Speaker 1 15:26

Yeah, yeah. And I do the field recording myself too. That's a big part of what I love about this making this music is the field recording.

Speaker 15:35

Field recording. So being out on on site conducting uh one of your concerts?

Speaker 1 15:43

No, no, um recording the sounds of the birds. And recording the yeah.

Speaker 15:49

Oh, okay. That's that's better than computer enhanced. But you know, it's very hard to tell between the two these days. It's so advanced now, you know.

Speaker 1 15:59

Yeah, it's true. Well, the computer computer nature sounds will never be as good as the real thing.

Speaker 16:07

That's definitely a s uh a difference there, but you know you would have to have a really sharp ear now to know what the difference is, I would think.

Speaker 1 16:18

Yeah.

Speaker 16:20

I, you know, I'm I'm like kind of a purist with that stuff, so I think that's great you're doing it that way. Yeah, I like that. So is this something you plan on continuing doing and and growing, or do you have another direction in mind that you want to go from here?

Speaker 1 16:40

I mean, I have a few different directions I'd like to develop always, but this is one that is important to me and that I would like to keep going. I think um this one could really turn into something that could help people.

Speaker 16:57

Definitely. I mean, outside the boundaries of New York, it sounds like you're busy enough there, but you really started to get things into other states and brought some apprentices in and uh taught them what you know and have people working all over the United States that I mean there's definitely a need, that's for sure.

Speaker 1 17:19

Yeah. I I would love to go uh all over, yeah. That's definitely an ambition of mine.

Speaker 17:26

I'm sure you'll do it if that's what you want to do. Sounds to me like you just set your mind to something and you do it. I mean, how long did it take you to learn to play all those instruments? How many years?

Speaker 1 17:37

Uh well, I guess from the time I started playing piano, so thirteen years.

Speaker 17:49

I'm just amazed at that. I mean, do you know how to read music or you just Oh yeah. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 17:55

Yeah, yeah, I was a classical kid. That was I went to a conservatory for classical music. Piano was my instrument, but I study composition.

Speaker 18:04

Oh, that explains it why it's so easy for you to pick something up. Okay. It I I I think it's an entirely different um mindset and and space for a musician to be in when they come from a place like you, or somebody who just knows how to play by ear and doesn't know how to read music. It's two different things entirely.

Speaker 1 18:26

Yeah. But it it is different things, but um, you know, some musicians who just play by ear do some really incredible things.

Speaker 18:36

They do, and I I just can't figure that one out at all. I don't get it. I don't know that it's it's like magical, something spiritual going on there.

Speaker 1 18:44

That I'll never it's true though. I mean um yeah. It's funny, I was having this conversation with some friends about like if the formal education is needed or not, and all the people who have formal educations are like talking about these experiences where they were with some composer who like has, you know, or for a film or something who's never who doesn't read music and who you know doesn't really have the educated background, and how maddening that experience was trying for that person to try to communicate to them, you know, what they wanted them to do. So everyone with the background is like, no, you need the background, and then everyone who doesn't have the background is like you don't need the background. I don't know.

Speaker 19:32

Yeah, coming from two different camps there, yeah. Yeah. Well, it has been great talking to you and getting to know you a bit more and understand where you're coming from with all your music, Jacob. And uh I really enjoyed the Tranquility Studies Volume 2 and uh look forward to what's on the horizon for you, and uh we'll get this interview out there and I'll add it to your your review. Hopefully the review brought some more listeners to you and encouraged you to keep doing what you're doing.

Speaker 1 20:06

So thank you so much. It was great talking to you, Keith, and thanks. Yeah, thanks for the review and everything.

Speaker 20:12

Absolutely. I appreciate your time.

Speaker 1 20:15

Appreciate your time too. Thanks. Take care now. All right, you too.

Speaker 20:20

Bye.